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philr
Junior Jammer
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 8
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 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:05 am Post subject: |
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I would certainly buy JazPak !  |
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Ixox
Junior Jammer
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: JazzPak Poll |
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| Zauni wrote: | We are getting closer to implementing a Jazz addon for Jamstix and would like your feedback on it.
- includes a Jamstix plugin update that adds logic to Jamstix to allow snare brushing and other jazz-exclusive techniques
- adds a complete brush kit including sizzle ride cymbal and snare brushing sounds
- adds jazz accents, fills and rhythms
The JazzPak would have an estimated price of $39. |
Please go for it !!!  |
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Hugo
Junior Jammer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:08 am Post subject: Maybe |
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Hi,
I'm interested, since jazz is my main working field. However, it should be VERY well done.
Like: most (jazz) demo mp3's of drum libraries avoid swing ride patterns, because (almost) none of them have good enough ride cymbals. So, the ride included in the jazz pack should be of (very) good quality.
Most midi loop libraries with swing drum patterns really s u c k. I am at this time programming my own swing patterns with a heavily tweaked "old jazz kit" from the battery 2 library and would be very interested if that programming could be "automated" this way. But then only if its VERY well done  .
O.T. I am also looking into another sample set for jazz programing and have the impression that the custom and vintage drums of toontrack could be what I am looking for, anybody can comment on that or a good jazz kit?
Hugo
http://www.pego.be
http://www.weedbackingtracks.com |
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Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Maybe |
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| Hugo wrote: |
Most midi loop libraries with swing drum patterns really s u c k. I am at this time programming my own swing patterns with a heavily tweaked "old jazz kit" from the battery 2 library and would be very interested if that programming could be "automated" this way. But then only if its VERY well done .
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Hi Hugo, could you send us a MID example file of such a pattern?
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Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
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Hugo
Junior Jammer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Maybe |
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| Zauni wrote: | | Hugo wrote: |
Most midi loop libraries with swing drum patterns really s u c k. I am at this time programming my own swing patterns with a heavily tweaked "old jazz kit" from the battery 2 library and would be very interested if that programming could be "automated" this way. But then only if its VERY well done .
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Hi Hugo, could you send us a MID example file of such a pattern? |
Hi,
An example of a good or a bad pattern? The bad ones, I don't think I need to give you examples since I think you know what I mean. Most general midi patterns are no good because of
1. Not enough variation in the ride cymbal
2. Very bad (and generally too many) fills
The first problem is not so easy to resolve, since it is not a question of velocity (or on the contrary, it is). One would need different ride hits that SLIGHTLY differ in sound at the SAME velocity. I achieved this by "squaching" 4 mid to up velocities of the velocity layered ride in battery 2 old jazz kit. I just lowered the harder ones in output, so that I have a different sample at different velocity levels, but at the same output level.
The sound of the ride is also VERY important. Typical rock rides won't cut it. Generally too much "ping" in the attack and way too thin in the decay.
Very important is the triplet feel in the ride figure and snare gost notes.
For toms and bass drum you need that real "kettle" sound with long decays.
In my opinion the old jazz kit in battery 2 is not too far off these goals. Soundwise this could be a good "reference"
The simplest of all jazz swing patterns is just:
Ride: a fourth note on every beat. It is a mistake to program ting ting ti-ding ALL the time.
Hat pedal on 2 & 4
Ghosting snare on the 2nd eight of groups of eights (triplet feel of course)
On the fills side: most fills don't cut it cause jazz drummers do a lot of rolls on the toms in fills, not just ti da da ti da da benggg, more somthing like prrrrr bbbbbrrr bshhhhhhhhh (hahaha).
If you include in the sounds:
1. Good Ride that differs in sound in a velocity range of 80 - 100, but does not get louder in that range.
1.B. Sizzle ride
2. Rolls on snare, toms (rolls & pressure rolls on BOTH!). Important: also "swelling" rolls.
3. Crash: hit side of ride or crash (woosh sound with some "gong" quality)
4. Good triplet feel snare ghosting
You got something you can find nowhere else. I assure you jazz programmers would be in heaven.
I will adapt some of my midi files to re- meet normal velocity handling and send one once finished.
Hugo |
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Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Hugo!
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Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
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Hugo
Junior Jammer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: you are welcome |
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| Zauni wrote: | | Thanks, Hugo! |
You are welcome Ralph,
Please don't think I consider myself an authority on the subject since I am not a drummer, but "only" a jazz guitar player with an above avarage interest in (jazz) drums (how many guitar players actually wanted to play drums but chose guitar, because: 1. the parents where opposed to it (the neighbours), 2. guitar players are on the front of the stage ). Big mistake !!!
You can always listen to what I (try to) achieve at:
http://www.weedbackingtracks.com
You can audition the files for free 3 times (sorry about that), you only have to be connected to internet for auditioning (license aquiring).
These first files did not use the cymbal velocity trick yet. That will be for the next ones. Here I used filtering (cubase stepfilter) to change the sound in time)
Hugo |
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tombuur
Jamologist
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 137
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't want it. Jazz is just not me. But I like the idea of add-ons and keeping cost down when only those who want it pay. |
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Panther
Jammer
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Please, Please, Please!!! |
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swingguy
Jammer
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject: jazz drum examples on Hugo's site |
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No offense meant to Hugo ... but as far as the examples on his site, realistic (or truly swinging) jazz drumming that is not!
He says he wants REALLY good jazz drums. So do we all ... IMO, the examples on his site are actually showing us how much he needs better drums. Ralph, yours will be way better than those ... won't they? You go bro! |
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Hugo
Junior Jammer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: jazz drum examples on Hugo's site |
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| swingguy wrote: | No offense meant to Hugo ... but as far as the examples on his site, realistic (or truly swinging) jazz drumming that is not!
He says he wants REALLY good jazz drums. So do we all ... IMO, the examples on his site are actually showing us how much he needs better drums. Ralph, yours will be way better than those ... won't they? You go bro! |
Hi,
Well, indeed I agree that it's not really good jazz drumming, nor are it the best jazz drum sounds one can imagine.
That's why I said "trying to achieve". Still I found "old jazz kit" from the battery2 library not bad (didn't hear any other decent "jazz kit").
BUT!!!! I ordered Superior Custom and Vintage just before the weekend. Should arrive mid next week. I am also looking into a E-drum kit.
Meanwhile, I would be very glad with a jamstix jazz addon .
Also, I understand now that the use of alternating samples for consequent hits has a name: "key switching". One learns every day. Also I learned this is taken care of by Superior C & V.
Hugo |
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Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: jazz drum examples on Hugo's site |
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I think Hugo's examples are very worthwhile. Everyone has different opinions about rhythms, sounds, arrangements etc. Let's all be respectful of the work of others!
| Quote: |
Also, I understand now that the use of alternating samples for consequent hits has a name: "key switching". One learns every day. Also I learned this is taken care of by Superior C & V.
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C&V does indeed alternate various samples for the same velocity in order to achieve a more realistically varied sound. However, that is not called "key switching", which is a method of switching to entirely different sounds when a specific MIDI key is triggered.
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Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
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Hugo
Junior Jammer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: jazz drum examples on Hugo's site |
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| Zauni wrote: | I think Hugo's examples are very worthwhile. Everyone has different opinions about rhythms, sounds, arrangements etc. Let's all be respectful of the work of others!
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Thanks
| Quote: |
C&V does indeed alternate various samples for the same velocity in order to achieve a more realistically varied sound. However, that is not called "key switching", which is a method of switching to entirely different sounds when a specific MIDI key is triggered. |
Ah, ok then. As I said one learns every day, hahaha. I am no midi specialist really. Just got into all this cause of what's possible now with the computer.
I am not touching at jamstix or a drummodule (read battery2) right now wanting to go deeper into all this when I get Custom & Vintage since I got the impression that anything I do meanwhile will go into the dustbin once I got C & V.
I am really looking forward to the Jazz pack too.
Hugo
Last edited by Hugo on Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: jazz drum examples on Hugo's site |
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| Hugo wrote: | I am not touching at jamstix or a drummodule (read battery2) right now wanting to go deeper into all this when I get Custom & Vintage since I got the impression that anything I do meanwhile will go into the dustbin once I got C & V.
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I wouldn't stop touching Jamstix, though
C&V is a fantastic sound library but it has no facilities to play those sounds. Jamstix and C&V is (IMHO) a great combo.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
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Hugo
Junior Jammer
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 13
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: jazz drum examples on Hugo's site |
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| Zauni wrote: | | Hugo wrote: | I am not touching at jamstix or a drummodule (read battery2) right now wanting to go deeper into all this when I get Custom & Vintage since I got the impression that anything I do meanwhile will go into the dustbin once I got C & V.
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I wouldn't stop touching Jamstix, though
C&V is a fantastic sound library but it has no facilities to play those sounds. Jamstix and C&V is (IMHO) a great combo. |
When I heard the demo's on the toontrack site I was literally blown away. Especially when I saw the user demo's with E-drums on their Forum. Honestly the first time I heard a really nice ride in a library. I did not fall for their original DFHS, for reasons you can guess since I think i've been clear on the subject of my taste, haha, but C&V is another story (I think / hope)
Going on holiday next week. Will take my laptop (workaholic!!) with me along with a print out of the jamstix manual.
Hugo |
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