| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:10 am Post subject: New 'Character' Control |
 |
|
Jamstix 1.3 will feature a new 'Character' control in the jam control panel. You can preview this function in the latest beta now.
Character will allow you to set certain overarching characteristics that will affect all play modes. At this time we have implemented an 'Aggressive' mode that can be used for harder rock arrangements. It replaces closed hihats with semi-closed hats.
In the future, the character control will supports addons, such as the planned jazz and electronic addons.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Musikman4Christ
Jamologist
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 116
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thats cool Ralph. Have you guys thought about implementing some latin styles. Like Salsa, texmex or cumbia styles?
_________________
Musikman
"I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope." When you wholeheartedly seek me, I will let you find me, declares the Lord."Jeremiah 29:11 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Musikman4Christ wrote: | | Thats cool Ralph. Have you guys thought about implementing some latin styles. Like Salsa, texmex or cumbia styles? |
We are evaluating various style extensions for the future.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
By the way, the 'Aggressive' character was implemented because we heard various songs on the net with Jamstix where the composer may have liked to use semi-hats. Even though semi-hats can be hand-programmed or set in free jam, we think a overarching character setting may be easier for those users.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kingsinger
Junior Jammer
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've been thinking a lot about the jamstix brain lately. Right now, it feels like the Jamstix brain is that of a fusion drummer, like say Steve Smith circa Jean Luc Ponty "Imaginary Voyage" or something like that.
So when I hear jams people have done along these lines, it typically sounds pretty good. When I hear other stuff, the quality seems to vary.
Moving forward, it would be really cool (if it's possible), to try and develop some new "brains" that could be popped in.
For example, would it be possible to analyze say the style of Charlie Watts and then create a brain profile that would cause Jamstix to react in the Charlie style when you're free jamming.
Obviously, this would in effect limit the palate of Jamstix quite a bit. But that's part of the real jamming process too. The strengths and limitations of the players effect the outcome. And if you know you are working on a rock song, you may prefer to deal with a drummer who really has that style dialed and puts their own personal spin on it.
I know it's perhaps a little bit pie in the sky. But does that make sense? Ultimately, at this point, most of pop music composition is about manipulating a palate of sonic and rhythmic archetypes. But this palate is going to vary depending on the drummer. To the extent that JS works well already for non-drummers it does so because it matches the appropriate rhythmic archetype to the music it hears. But it would be cool if there were ways to dial this in even further (in effect filters). It's nice to have control over things like the funkiness and complexity.
But those are still kind of drummer terms. A lot of people non-drummers think in terms of "like Charlie Watts." Or "like Kieth Moon." And while I have no clear idea of how you have developed the existing Jamstix algorithms, it seems like the process of constructing a Charlie Watts brain for Jamstix would involve a similar approach (it would just be more specific to a specific limited universe of archetypes).
KS |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kingsinger wrote: | I've been thinking a lot about the jamstix brain lately. Right now, it feels like the Jamstix brain is that of a fusion drummer, like say Steve Smith circa Jean Luc Ponty "Imaginary Voyage" or something like that.
So when I hear jams people have done along these lines, it typically sounds pretty good. When I hear other stuff, the quality seems to vary.
Moving forward, it would be really cool (if it's possible), to try and develop some new "brains" that could be popped in.
For example, would it be possible to analyze say the style of Charlie Watts and then create a brain profile that would cause Jamstix to react in the Charlie style when you're free jamming.
Obviously, this would in effect limit the palate of Jamstix quite a bit. But that's part of the real jamming process too. The strengths and limitations of the players effect the outcome. And if you know you are working on a rock song, you may prefer to deal with a drummer who really has that style dialed and puts their own personal spin on it.
I know it's perhaps a little bit pie in the sky. But does that make sense? Ultimately, at this point, most of pop music composition is about manipulating a palate of sonic and rhythmic archetypes. But this palate is going to vary depending on the drummer. To the extent that JS works well already for non-drummers it does so because it matches the appropriate rhythmic archetype to the music it hears. But it would be cool if there were ways to dial this in even further (in effect filters). It's nice to have control over things like the funkiness and complexity.
But those are still kind of drummer terms. A lot of people non-drummers think in terms of "like Charlie Watts." Or "like Kieth Moon." And while I have no clear idea of how you have developed the existing Jamstix algorithms, it seems like the process of constructing a Charlie Watts brain for Jamstix would involve a similar approach (it would just be more specific to a specific limited universe of archetypes).
KS |
It appears that there is a bit of a misconception out there in regards to the Jamstix free jam algorithm. It does not analyze the type of music sent to its MIDI or audio input. The style of a free jam is determined by the settings in the jam style and control panels. Using those controls, you can change the rhythms generated dramatically.
I've heard many jams where the user appeared to have used the default free jam settings, maybe under that misconception of an auto-interpretation by Jamstix. I encourage everyone to freely experiment with the jam style and control panel to see the range of free jam behavior that can be accomplished.
We have been toying with the idea of creating some arrangements that give examples of free jam settings to show off the range.
Now, concerning your idea of packaging jam behavior into recognizable 'named' sets...we've had that idea on and off the table for some time. There are pros and cons to it. As it stands, Jamstix is out there in somewhat new territory and we're going to see how it plays out, collect more user feedback and then take the next big step with Jamstix 2. So, your input is part of the process! Thanks!
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Musikman4Christ
Jamologist
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 116
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kingsinger wrote: |
But those are still kind of drummer terms. A lot of people non-drummers think in terms of "like Charlie Watts." Or "like Kieth Moon." And while I have no clear idea of how you have developed the existing Jamstix algorithms, it seems like the process of constructing a Charlie Watts brain for Jamstix would involve a similar approach (it would just be more specific to a specific limited universe of archetypes).
KS |
I'm not a drummer personally and I do have a hard time understanding the terms sometimes. I think what youre saying if I understand correctly is to maybe have an optional GUI where terms are more easily understood for non drummers. I dont know how difficult that would be, but maybe somehow put a entry level GUI and an advanced GUI. Don't know just brainstorming here.
But either way, Jamstix rules man. ITs the best drum program out there, period!
More styles would rock too. But for right now, its got what I need and it rocks big time!
_________________
Musikman
"I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope." When you wholeheartedly seek me, I will let you find me, declares the Lord."Jeremiah 29:11 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JohnR
Jammer
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zauni wrote: | It appears that there is a bit of a misconception out there in regards to the Jamstix free jam algorithm. It does not analyze the type of music sent to its MIDI or audio input. The style of a free jam is determined by the settings in the jam style and control panels. Using those controls, you can change the rhythms generated dramatically.
|
I thought it analsyed the initial chord and also the rhythms in each bar. Is this correct?
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GuruOne
Jam Meister
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 55
Location: The GOMP monster's home
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Regarding free-jam mode, the only mode I use... Now i'm really confused. I thought the whole point of this proggie was to emulate a real drummer with a brain  Yes, drummers have them (can't help bad drummer jokes). Why shouldn't Jamstix respond dynamically in real-time to changes in the audio/midi incoming signal? This is not rocket science.
ps. I think the idea of modelling famous drummers' brains is GREAT! (At least modelling pre-existing audio/midi drum sequences would be good too) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JohnR wrote: | I thought it analsyed the initial chord and also the rhythms in each bar. Is this correct?
John |
Yes, that is correct. What it doesn't do is adjust funkiness, complexity etc. automatically based on an analysis of the input.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GuruOne wrote: | Regarding free-jam mode, the only mode I use... Now i'm really confused. I thought the whole point of this proggie was to emulate a real drummer with a brain Yes, drummers have them (can't help bad drummer jokes). Why shouldn't Jamstix respond dynamically in real-time to changes in the audio/midi incoming signal? This is not rocket science.
|
Yes, Jamstix does respond dynamically to the input data in various ways but it does not alter funkiness, complexity etc. based on the input. This requires manual selection prior (or during) the free jam.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chardin
Jam Meister
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 75
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Zauni wrote: | | We have been toying with the idea of creating some arrangements that give examples of free jam settings to show off the range. |
I would love to see more demonstrations. Jamstix is incredibly powerful and any ideas to unlock the potential will be appreciated. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MickGael
Jammer
Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 37
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kingsinger wrote: | I've been thinking a lot about the jamstix brain lately. Right now, it feels like the Jamstix brain is that of a fusion drummer, like say Steve Smith circa Jean Luc Ponty "Imaginary Voyage" or something like that.
|
Actually, I think that's fair (I have the same reaction). I still love the plugin, but I definitely pickup the same vibe when I hear it.
Will be interesting to see where the character knob takes things in the end...few developers are as genial, responsive and open to suggestions as Ralph is.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kingsinger
Junior Jammer
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | It appears that there is a bit of a misconception out there in regards to the Jamstix free jam algorithm. It does not analyze the type of music sent to its MIDI or audio input. The style of a free jam is determined by the settings in the jam style and control panels. Using those controls, you can change the rhythms generated dramatically.
I've heard many jams where the user appeared to have used the default free jam settings, maybe under that misconception of an auto-interpretation by Jamstix. I encourage everyone to freely experiment with the jam style and control panel to see the range of free jam behavior that can be accomplished. |
Yes. I understand that. But you must have some sort of probability model that leads the brain to take certain actions based on certain inputs it receives. Then the settings have the effect of changing the probability that certain things are going to happen. They filter out certain possibilities or increase the likelihood that they will happen.
I guess I'm just talking about another way of changing these filters. You folks were obviously smart enough to build a probablity model that yields reasonably musical results (which is better than anything else I've seen so far). All I'm talking about is extending that model in more particular directions that correspond with signature styles of famous drummers (or particular styles).
I know the program isn't literally listening to the audio analyzing it and reacting to the style. It still falls upon the user of the software to do that analysis and then configure the jamstix settings appropriately. But as they stand, the settings are at once too simple and too complicated.
They're too simple to the extent that the sophisticated user doesn't really know in any fine grained way how changing them will specifically effect the outcome of the performance (and frankly anyone who is sophisticated enough to make those kinds of changes probably does fine with a regular drum machine, as long as it has a deep interface with lots of parameters).
Ironically, the controls are in some respects too complicated for the run of the mill non-drummer for the exact same reason. You can't really predict that well how they will effect the final performance. That's the blessing and the curse of JS. On the one hand, it's often amazing how many useable ideas it generates. That's when you feel like you really are playing with a real drummer. On the other hand, it's sometimes hard to figure out how and why it has generated something useable (maybe that's like playing with a real drummer too:)).
That's where these brain pre-sets might come in handy. If I select Charlie Watts, I'm in effect telling the program that my free jam will not involve Jean Luc Ponty. Ideally, you folks will have spent some time thinking about what the archetypical characteristics of the Charlie Watts style are, and then figured out the best way to configure JS to increase the probability that if I play a chugging, Chuck Berry meets Rolling Stones type pattern into the JS, it will play back patterns that are akin to ones the user might expect Charlie Watts to play.
Honestly, it doesn't really matter if you call it the "Charlie Watts brain" or just the "Basic Rock Brain." What matters is that when a dumbass like me selects "Basic Rock Brain," and starts playing along with it doing a Chuck Berry meets Stones thing, I don't get the '70s fusion sound stylings of Billy Cobham or Tony Williams back.
KS |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kingsinger wrote: | That's where these brain pre-sets might come in handy. If I select Charlie Watts, I'm in effect telling the program that my free jam will not involve Jean Luc Ponty. Ideally, you folks will have spent some time thinking about what the archetypical characteristics of the Charlie Watts style are, and then figured out the best way to configure JS to increase the probability that if I play a chugging, Chuck Berry meets Rolling Stones type pattern into the JS, it will play back patterns that are akin to ones the user might expect Charlie Watts to play.
Honestly, it doesn't really matter if you call it the "Charlie Watts brain" or just the "Basic Rock Brain." What matters is that when a dumbass like me selects "Basic Rock Brain," and starts playing along with it doing a Chuck Berry meets Stones thing, I don't get the '70s fusion sound stylings of Billy Cobham or Tony Williams back.
KS |
I absolutely agree with you. That's why we have a load/save capability for the free jam settings on the wishlist as it will allow us (and you) to define specific setups and either name them after drummers or songs or whatever else. Stay tuned for this in the near future.
| Quote: |
and frankly anyone who is sophisticated enough to make those kinds of changes probably does fine with a regular drum machine, as long as it has a deep interface with lots of parameters
|
I disagree on that point. Even though the Jamstix control capabilities are complex, they are still much easier than note-by-note editing as I and many others have done in the past. There are several levels of 'humanization' and 'variation' that Jamstix takes off your shoulders no matter what you do.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
