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bosone
Jamologist
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 125
Location: parma, italy
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: not so good impressions about JS2 demo... |
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as a JS1 user, i'm testing the demo
i admit i didnt spent a lot of time with JS2 because of other things to do, but i don't feel pretty at ease with the new interface...
perhaps i'm one of the few, since i read a lot of enthusiasm...
the version should be 2.06, i donwloaded the demo monday 27/8
1) i cannot edit the pattern while the song is playing? in JS1 it was possible!
2) i cannot solo the kik,snare,hat (or the separate hands, now..) as in JS1!
3) editing hats seems very tricky... since you have to manually select how much open/closed the hat should be, i admit i preferred the rather simply layout of JS1 when the hat sound was clearly stated in the window
4) the characters and the icons are VEEEERY small on a 1280x1024 monitor... why not to enlarge the window a bit? i bet a lot of people are using this resolution with 17 or 19'' LCD monitor and are no more stuck with 1024x768...
5) the editing of the bar itself is not very straightforward at a first sigth... maybe some improvements like lasso select, multiple copy, some hotkeys for defining the hit type would make things better (for example, i press K and draw the kik hits, S the snare, and so on... i keep pressed alt of shift of ctrl and draw the hat open/closed...)
in JS1 it was very simple to have a look at first sight on anything, here it seems pretty much complicated...
6) i didnt managed to handle fills and accents yet... they are very different from JS1 approach, nevertheless.... i hope that they are easy to use! 
in conclusion, i feel that JS2 gives a LOT of new possibility, despite a harder and not so easy interface (at a first sight...)... i am a bit dubious...
i will print the manual and try to read it carefully to get some hint....
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Ralph [RZ]
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 13332
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: Re: not so good impressions about JS2 demo... |
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| bosone wrote: | i cannot edit the pattern while the song is playing? in JS1 it was possible!
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Click the rounded arrow to the left of the bar editor to enter preview mode. Jamstix will then endlessly repeat the current bar and let you edit it at the same time.
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2) i cannot solo the kik,snare,hat (or the separate hands, now..) as in JS1!
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Go to the visual kit. CTRL-Click a drum/cymbal to solo it, SHFT-Click for mute.
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4) the characters and the icons are VEEEERY small on a 1280x1024 monitor... why not to enlarge the window a bit? i bet a lot of people are using this resolution with 17 or 19'' LCD monitor and are no more stuck with 1024x768...
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We'll look into this but this can't get changed anytime soon.
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5) the editing of the bar itself is not very straightforward at a first sigth... maybe some improvements like lasso select, multiple copy, some hotkeys for defining the hit type would make things better (for example, i press K and draw the kik hits, S the snare, and so on... i keep pressed alt of shift of ctrl and draw the hat open/closed...)
in JS1 it was very simple to have a look at first sight on anything, here it seems pretty much complicated...
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We'll improve the bar editor as we go along but key shortcuts are likely not possible due to host interference.
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6) i didnt managed to handle fills and accents yet... they are very different from JS1 approach, nevertheless.... i hope that they are easy to use!
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They are so much better than in JS1. Your selected drummer model (and some styles) will create specific accents. Just go to the ACCENT tab of the brain and move the sliders as desired.
Fills are now generated by a dedicated modeler, not based on pre-made patterns as in JS1. The generator is influenced by style and drummer model and can literally create thousands of different fills.
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Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
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bosone
Jamologist
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 125
Location: parma, italy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: Re: not so good impressions about JS2 demo... |
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| Ralph [RZ] wrote: | | bosone wrote: | i cannot edit the pattern while the song is playing? in JS1 it was possible!
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Click the rounded arrow to the left of the bar editor to enter preview mode. Jamstix will then endlessly repeat the current bar and let you edit it at the same time.
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but in this way you cannot edit the pattern while the drummer is playing, you are stuck with a single pattern. in JS1 you could edit the single pattern "on the fly"... even if they were changing each bar...
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2) i cannot solo the kik,snare,hat (or the separate hands, now..) as in JS1!
Go to the visual kit. CTRL-Click a drum/cymbal to solo it, SHFT-Click for mute.
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a "mute/solo" for each limb would be better, in my opinion, since in this case you can handle everything from one screen (just as in JS1). going throught different screens in an editing phase is always time-consuming and you loose phocus on what yout are actually doing... (IMHO!)
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Mekanik Zain
Jammer
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 20
Location: Bordeaux - France
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 4) the characters and the icons are VEEEERY small on a 1280x1024 monitor... why not to enlarge the window a bit? i bet a lot of people are using this resolution with 17 or 19'' LCD monitor and are no more stuck with 1024x768...
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+ 1 ! I'm very disappointed by the GUI / color chart / and fonts design & size ...
Have you see the GUI of EZDrummer / Addictive Drums / etc ? These VSTi have a great look and JS suffer comparison .....
JS stay the best virtual drummer but his GUI is pretty lame ....  |
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Ralph [RZ]
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Mekanik Zain wrote: | | Have you see the GUI of EZDrummer / Addictive Drums / etc ? |
I agree that there's always room for improvement but comparisons with EZdrummer are not appropriate. EZD has virtually NO user controls when compared to what JS2 has to put on the screen because of EZD's very limited and focused functionality. There are very few plugins of the complexity of JS2 fitting that many control elements into that small of a space.
But we're gonna keep improving it...
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Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
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bosone
Jamologist
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 125
Location: parma, italy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ralph [RZ] wrote: | | Mekanik Zain wrote: | | Have you see the GUI of EZDrummer / Addictive Drums / etc ? |
There are very few plugins of the complexity of JS2 fitting that many control elements into that small of a space.
But we're gonna keep improving it... |
why not a possibility to display/hide various part of the window, keeping everything a bit more "big"? something like the kontakt2 interface, if you know it...
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Ralph [RZ]
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: |
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We're gonna take in all suggestions for the future. Thanks!
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lucky
Jamologist
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 182
Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| bosone wrote: | | as a JS1 user.... i didn’t spent a lot of time with JS2 because of other things to do.... in conclusion, I feel that JS2 gives a LOT of new possibility, despite a harder and not so easy interface (at a first sight...)... |
I think that as a JS1 user it takes some time to get used to the new workflow, at least it did for me. I'm still struggling a bit, but now I'm beginning to understand and appreciate this new way of working. The maturity level of JS2 upon release was a bit influencing my appreciation; it was not always clear what I was doing, and if the result I was hearing was correct or just my misunderstanding of the workflow.
While unfortunate, it is part of the deal of being an early adapter of new technology, especially a product that has been rebuilt from the ground up. If you have problems with the latter, wait a few more weeks, and I am sure that all these issues will be resolved, especially with the great support Rayzoon is giving.
JS2 might be a bit more complicated at first glance than JS1 is, but it has a far greater potential. I have used JS1 extensively, primarily for jamsessions, and while I think JS1 is a very nice and unique drum tool, its 'improvised' drumming was a bit rough around the edges and not always that subtle to say the least.
I believe that JS2's 'improvised' drumming is far more sophisticated and closer to what a drummer would do when jamming along with you. Furthermore, its level of customization if far greater, making it better in suiting your needs. Of course there is always room for improvement, but I believe that in its current state it is quite a unique and inspiring product on the market.
Yes, visually it might not be the most attractive plug-in, and it could do with some workflow improvements and some UI adjustments, but in its current state its interface is usable enough for most of us to appreciate what it's supposed to do: quickly create realistic and cool sounding drum tracks in any style without all the hassle of programming each note individually, while also interacting with your playing. What more do you want!
My advise is, redownload the demo in a few weeks, try some songs, give it some time, and I’m confident that you will start to appreciate it. |
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J van E
Jamologist
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Posts: 196
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| lucky wrote: | | JS2 might be a bit more complicated at first glance than JS1 is, but it has a far greater potential. |
I think that for a newcomer JS2 is a LOT more SIMPLE than JS1. I remember having lots of trouble understanding all screens of JS1 and have always had trouble with the very weird (sorry!) pattern editor. Woth JS2, as soon as I am set up, I don't have to use any other screen than the main one, while in JS1 you HAD to switch back and forth to get things done. The bar editor is also a GIANT leap forward. So is the songsheet and the way you can handle er... well, everything. 
I DO agree about the greater potential part.  |
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bosone
Jamologist
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 125
Location: parma, italy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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there is one thing that is still not clear to me (but i dint play with JS anything more due to lack of time...).
in JS1 i could set up a 4-bar verse (let's say), which was composed by 4 bars each one being different from the previous one. i could do this by setting up 4 different pattern in the arrangement window, and editing each one of them independently from the other. then i would simply setup in the arrangement the pattern 1,2,3,4.
in JS2 i see that you can define the song-structure (verse, chorus,etc), with each section being a fixed bar-number (4 bar verse, 4 bar chorus...).
my question: if my verse is composed of 4 different bars, how can i handle it? i see that, being defined the verse (i.e. the song-par in the arrangement window) you have access to only one bar where you can define the groove. the following bars are arranged based on this "core bar"?
what if i need a verse in which the first bar has a kik in 1,3 and the second bar has a kik in 1,3,4 ? should i make this in the arrangement window by "splitting" the verse in 2?
or does the "verse" repeated 4 times (=4 bar verse) contains independent information for each of the 4 bar, each one defined by the user?
i know that it's a tricky question... and i will try to discover by myself, but i don't think i will have time until the weekend!
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Ralph [RZ]
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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The core bars of a part are all the bars before the first repetition so if you have a 4-bar part, you actually have 4 core bars. I suggest you let the brain compose the basic groove you want for bar 1. Now lock bar 1 (LOCKED button on bar editor). Change the brain sliders/knobs etc. until bar 2 sounds right. You can also hand-edit bar 2 in the bar editor. When it sounds right, lock it. Repeat for bars 3 and 4.
Also, use the rounded arrow button next to the bar editor to loop a bar and edit while it is playing (PREVIEW) and make sure you have hotfix 2.0.13.
Finally, you can also create the desired 4 bar sequence as described above and then drag the bars to the host and save them as a MID file. Now you can use the 'Import' style on the part and load that MID file as the 'seed' and it will compose nice 4-bar grooves based on your creation.
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Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
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J van E
Jamologist
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Posts: 196
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Ralph [RZ] wrote: | I suggest you let the brain compose the basic groove you want for bar 1. Now lock bar 1 (LOCKED button on bar editor). Change the brain sliders/knobs etc. until bar 2 sounds right. You can also hand-edit bar 2 in the bar editor. When it sounds right, lock it. Repeat for bars 3 and 4.
Also, use the rounded arrow button next to the bar editor to loop a bar and edit while it is playing (PREVIEW) and make sure you have hotfix 2.0.13. |
For things like this (a part with 4 different bars) a PART LOOP option would be awesome...! (Although setting a loop in Sonar is just as easy. But still...) |
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