Rayzoon Technologies LLC

[paspallum]

Ralph
Here's a good suggestion.
One for the future (after JS2 comes out).

Why don't you make a drumkit (or kits) or even a detailed snare pak (even a single snare pak) that is recorded to high quality 2 inch analog tape (like a struder or otari) through a classic desk like a Neve. And converted to digital at 24 bit for that extra touch of depth? (sampling a classic snare of course like a Ludwig)

I know this would be costly to produce... but nobody has done it before... (BFD is the closest but they record digitally - no tape) and you could charge a high premium for such a set.

I guess most drum sample makers (Rayzoon included) figure that maybe people want clean, clear and nuetral sounding recordings.. and maybe they figure that some people will be bouncing their 'midi drums' to analog tape anyway and therefore would not want tape saturation on the raw samples.... but to be fair, 99.9% of people using drum samples will be using a digital recording method (usually a PC or Mac -and don't have access to a classic console and high a quality tape machine) and would welcome a supreme set of samples recorded with the 'coloured' and flavoursome tone of saturated tape.

It'd be truly awesome to have some drum sounds that already have that 'classic', 'vintage', 'analog' sound already imprinted on the samples.

What do you think? (I want the first set!)

Paspallum

[gregjazz]

I think you have a good idea. Vintage kits don't sound right unless they are recorded vintage also.

Though, I think if you have single hits recorded on 2 inch tape, etc., to reproduce the vintage sound, what if you play two drums at the same time? These are combined via traditional additive synthesis -- the two sounds are plainly mixed together. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you'd get the same sound if those two drums played at the same time were recorded on 2 inch tape.

Which leads me to the thought that possibly the best place to do any 2 inch tape process (either simulated or real) would be at the very end, after the drum track is sequenced, and possibly after any EQ or reverb is applied.

Or am I misunderstanding this whole issue?

[Ralph [RZ]]

The basic effects of tape recording are : saturation, noise and a non-linear frequency spectrum. It is the noise factor that makes recording a sample set via vintage analog equipment undesirable. Jamstix can reach 40 voices for a complex rhythm, which would mean an atrocious accumulation of noise in the output as Gregjazz pointed out.

We believe the best way to reach vintage sound is to have a dedicated tape effect in the master effect that produces the necessary saturation, noise and EQing to simulate a vintage recording.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com

[ProfRhino]

If you do some searching at Gearslutz or UAD forums you'll find that tape emulation is the holy grail (not only) of software FX, we're so still so far from that goal, most "solutions" are only worth a if you've ever worked with real tape.
But on the other hand our current choice of drum samples (and JS' sounds are among the best imho) is so fantastic it would have made a producer cry for joy 5 years ago.
Definitely more than adequate for small to medium productions, and for a real major release there's still no way around recording a real drummer, and hopefully it will stay like that.
Still, I perfectly understand paspallum's wish, maybe in 2 or 3 years there will be a convincing solution as technology moves on.
Cheers, Rhino

[paspallum]

Prof Rhino
Yeah... Jamstix samples are good... between them and BFD we have 100X the drum potential that digital music makers had even 3-4 years ago.

I have the Voxengo Tape bus (which is very good and subtle) as well as the offerings from PSP and of course Steinbergs Magneto.... I've worked with 2 inch 24 track tape before ... and extensively with chrome cassette tape...

and you know what? I 'work' every day of my life with recordings that were recorded to analog tape... yep every day I'm listening to my CD collection (over 500 CD's) nearly ALL of then were recorded to analog tape... they are mostly old classic albums like Neil Young, CSNY, The Beatles, Stones, Buffalo Springfield...etc etc etc etc .... so every day I'm hearing classic old desks, pre-amps and tape.... my ears know what thy are looking for!

And I'm not convinced yet that the digital tape sim plugins are really all that great. (Voxengo is the best)

I don't know why? Surely it'd be easy to do? Steinberg did it 7 years ago with Magneto and they haven't changed it since (surely they didn't 'nail-it' 'first time' that well??)

Native Instruments have done such a great job with Guitar Rig 2 and the B4... so good that it is just un-believeable... why is the 'holy-grail' (tape simulation) recieving so little attention??

Anyway I still do think it is a good idea to make a premium drum sample set recorded on classic vintage analog gear... 'noise-on-noise'?? Surley the original recordings would suffer the same problems (and they sound fantastic!)
Only one drum sample is playing at a time isn't it? I mean only one snare hit plays at any one second in time? or do they 'overlap'? I imagine if every kit piece was overlapping a multitude of times then the noise could get ridiculous.... but as far a as a all anlaog sample set is concerned (to quote Brian Wilson) wouldn't it be nice?

Paspallum

[Ralph [RZ]]

[ProfRhino]

paspallum,
the problem with tape emulation is you're dealing with at least 3 variables (EQ, compression and mild distortion) which all depend dynamically and non-linear on the level of the incoming signal, the density and the frequency mix, transients and so on.
It tends to get complex, too complex for today's computers ...
And as far as software amp sims go - they do sound ok with clean stuff and medium distortion but the whole range inbetween clean and slightly overdriven, where the expression lies (and the similarities to tape emu), sound so pathetic to my ears I want to go home and cry. And I have tried almost everything in the market, with the exception of Waves.
Got a VOX TonelabSE lately which looks promising, it uses a 12AX7 tube to simulate power amp clipping, and you feel and hear a difference. Only used it with my Peavey Classic (4*EL 84) yet and it sounds great, we'll see how it shines direct to the board.

Cheers, Rhino

PS: Have you had a chance to fool around with Toontrack's C&V and the new expansion ? They might be right up your alley.

[paspallum]

Hey guys thanks for your detailed replies to my idea...
If it technically can't be done... then it can't be done...

But you guys know that I think the drum samples we have now from Rayzoon and BFD are awesome already don't you? I wasn't complaining about what we have already got... it was just an idea for a specialist sample set.

Keep up the great work!
Cheers!
Paspallum

[paspallum]

Hey Prof Rhino (or Ralph)
Thanks for the hint on the EZ drummer and Toontracks.

Does Jamstix interface with EZ drummer?

Paspallum

[ProfRhino]

paspallum,
EzDrummer uses a GM map with some additional notes, so basically yes.
It sounds good, too, but I still like JS's sounds far better, much more flexible.
I mentioned C&V and the new expansion pack 'cause you seemed to look for authentic 60s and 70s drums, and in that genre there is no competition imho.
Until Ralph puts out a Vintage Pak, that is ...
BTW, I don't see why JS should not be compatible with any library as long as you trigger externally.
Making a customized mapping is a matter of minutes ...
Cheers, Rhino

[paspallum]

ProfRhino
Thanks again for the info.
Yeah the EZ Vintage rock addon could be right up my alley.

Hey and you just gotta love that interface!

To me an interface like that make you feel that the drums are really there with you... and it is more than that... it is way more friendly on the brain... with our (beloved) Jamstix your eyes (and brain) do spend time searching for 'that liitle green box for the snare' (that looks much like the green box for the kick..etc) or looking down a long list of snare names to find the snare you want...

But with an interface like that...well you've spent a great deal of your life around real drumkits... your brain knows where to look... you see a photographic representation of a kit (drummers perspective) your brain finds what it's looking for instantly... the eyes only do the job they are designed for... they don't have to 'squint' or 're-scan'.. I love it!

(of course sounds are vitally important also)

Is the Vintage addon kit for EZ drummer available yet? On the website it says the certain features are TBA.. so I figure that it might not even be avilable to buy yet.

So I can use EZ drummer with Jamstix driving it... just how I use Jamstix to drive bFD now?

Paspallum

[ProfRhino]

paspallum,
there seems to be a little misunderstanding.
I was recommending the real Custom & Vintage VSTi, the brother of DFHS.
And the new "limited" expansion for C&V, not EzDrummer.
EzDrummer is nice, but a very limited library. Not really needed if you have JS, and with the upcoming expansions it will get quite pricey for relatively few sounds. The MIDI library also looks better on paper than in reality, nothing JS couldn't do better and easier imho.
Check out the Toontrack site for details about the different products and listen to the C&V demos ("70´s Style" and "Camco Craviotto Jam") for 70s sounds.
If you have more questions you're welcome, I own all the Toontrack stuff and I'll do my best to answer.
But in a nutshell, JS with the Paks and C&V, that's 95% of what I really use.
YMMV of course.
Have a nice day,
Rhino

[paspallum]

ProfRhino
Oh yeah I must've got waylayed a bit there and offtrack while I was browsing.
So The DFH Superior Custom and Vintage addons are the ones I should be looking at?

I notice the the Vintage Rock addon doesn't come with the DFH Superior plugin... and in fact I can't see anywhere on there website that has the plagin available on it's own.... to me it looks like I'd have to buy the C&V set plus the Vintage rock set... which is a pretty big finaincial outlay.

I already have BFD V1.... how much better is the Toontracks stuff than BFD? (In your opinion) Is any it better at all?

Papsallum

[ProfRhino]

paspallum,
yes, the C&V and possibly the Vintage Rock expansion are what I'm talking about. C&V is a full product like DFHS, coming with the drummer plugin. And the expansion "only" adds more of the same (love it !), i.e. two more kits.
DFHS itself is more modern sounding and can be combined with the above, but you don't need to. I do enjoy the percussion library coming with DFHS a lot though.
I'm not in a position to comment on BFD since I don't own it, but I personally really enjoy those vintage sounds, especially since they work great for many modern songs, too. Check out Chris Whitten's track record and you get the picture. One thing I can say however is that with TT's new TPC RAM compression I can load a complete kit using 200 to 300 MB of RAM and very little CPU (no disk streaming) for composing / arranging, which imho beats BFD's technical concept hands down. And before the final mix I render the mics to audio and can work with full 24 Bit audio files. YMMV, of course.
And as far as price goes, I've seen several really great offers for C&V far below list price in online stores, check out the usual suspects.
Cheers, Rhino

[Phil Fee]

Jamstix samples are really nice and you can get very pleasing results with them. Even just the default kit sounds really good. Toontracks C&V and the Vintage Add On are great sounding samples to be sure - I use them a lot.

BFD with the expansion packs needs a big drive dedicated to streaming those samples and has a big RAM footprint (if you are loading the full sample set) but it also has the greatest sample depth - more velocity levels - by a factor of 5 or 7 times in some cases when compared with the gradient set in TT's sets.

These are all high quality sets and I wouldn't part with any of them.