Rayzoon Technologies LLC

[Amberience]

Hi, I made a post on the EnergyXT forums concerning Jamstix, but I wanted to bring it to the author of the program. This isn't meant as a slurt or attack, I really thing Jamstix has huge potential. So the following should be taken in a constructive manner, I hope it is at least

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See my problem with the plugin stems from how different it is trying to be from other plugins. Ok, lets take a look at BFD and Jamstix. (a lot of other plugins like EZdrummer and DFH work in the same way as BFD, but I guess you know how they work, you get a drumkit you can customize, and you also get a collection of midi grooves. You drag those midi grooves to a midi track and can edit them.)

You can drag a groove from BFD to a track, and you can chop it up, change the time signature, move snare hits around.. but still keep the essence of that groove. This is how most other programs work with your software, so time signatures are not an issue. You can do anything you want.

But Jamstix is hardcoded to only work in 4/4 by the looks of it - you can tell that from the rhythm page. Also if you want to change a rhythm, you have to save it and reopen it to a different arrangement track and then make your edits, and THEN program in the rhythm change.

Why can't it be as simple as copying and pasting like with the other programs?

And then if you want to work in that sort of "midi track" fashion, you have to export a midi file and then import it into your host. Why couldn't it be as simple as a "to track" button, where the arranger data goes to the track linked to that instance of the plugin.

I just don't really understand why its all necessary. Why Rayzoon couldn't have made a suite of plugins designed to give you the various things Jamstix can give you.

I like its audio jamming features. Never seen that before, and I'm very impressed with that. I like the arranger, I like how you can right click and add a fill, intro, or ending. I like that you can assign timing variance, and you CAN make it sound like a human drummer or as close as. I like how it can dynamically add drum rolls/trills to the track also.

But why is it all presented in this convoluted way?

Currently using the XT groove object on a midi track can give me the same variance control. True enough, its not as random as it could be, and it does just loop a pattern. But it still works and its convincing enough.


Don't get me wrong, BFD isn't perfect. When you drag a groove to a seq track in XT, for some reason it creates multiple tempo tracks and resets the tempo to 10!! I haven't yet tried EZdrummer, but I hope its not the same.

After all this, Jamstix does work to an extent, but the time signature thing IS a big problem, the other things are minor things that I could potentially cope with if I could get it to drum in different time sigs.

I hope this crit comes across as constructive, because that's how I send it. I'm not calling it shit, because like I said, there are things I like about it.

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That was my post. What I would also like to propose is that.. well, I'm not a programmer and no expert.. but maybe somehow you should be able to tell Jamstix that you want a certain type of beat in a certain place in a bar for a certain percentage of probability.

Of course if I'm missing anything, I would love to be put on track, because if some of the stuff I'm bringing up has a solution already, I'm all ears!

[koolkeys]

Hey Amberience! I'm glad you posted this stuff here. I'm sure Zauni will be along pretty quickly. Maybe some of this is already in JS2!

Cheers!

Brent

[Ralph [RZ]]

Hi Amberience and thanks for your comments!

Jamstix is currently geared toward 4/4 although it can also do 3/4, 6/8 and 2/4. We will expand this drastically in Jamstix 2 which will be much more flexible and allow a wide range of x/4 and x/8 rhythms. By the way, I am not seeing how you drag a 4/4 rhythm from BFD etc. into a host and then get a sensible rhythm out of that when you just change the sig in the host to, let's say 7/4 but I haven't done that kind of workflow myself.

Concerning the current JS approach: the loop-based workflow that you are describing does not appeal to everyone. It is essentially the concatenation of static rhythms from a loop library. Jamstix attempts a more organic, rule-based approach. The export to MIDI (or record MIDI) then allows you to import the result into a host for any further hand-editing if so desired.

As an example: Jamstix reduces rhythms or switches to snare sidestick when velocity falls under a certain threshold. When it reaches high levels, Jamstix can switch from hihat to ride. Those are things that a drummer would do (not always of course) and many musicians don't necessarily know that. So Jamstix takes that away and models it as a behavior whereas you, using the 'string loops in host and hand-edit them' must think all of this beforehand and select/edit it yourself. This is just one example aspect of how we want to revolutionize drum track composing using rule-based systems.


In other words: the 'I love to drag loops into the host' crowd isn't exactly the target customer for Jamstix at this point. That being said, Jamstix 2 will offer a low-level editor that will remove the need to MIDI-edit in the host. At the same time, the arranger will become even more structure and rule-based to further fine-tune the new 'organic' Jamstix approach.

We are also simplifying the interface for Jamstix 2 and are increasing the AI aspects of the engine with brand-new 'player' and 'style' modeling. If all goes as planned, it will be very exciting.

In summary: Unlike the established 'drag loop' plugins, Jamstix attempts a a whole new approach and we are dedicated to evolving and perfecting this approach as good as we can through future Jamstix versions. Input such as yours will help us accommodate as many needs as we can so keep it coming
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Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com

[Amberience]

I like the more organic result Jamstix can give you, and were I only working in 4/4 (I don't get how you can do 3/4 and 6/8, unless you mean triplets??) it would be all I would need for now.

Midi loops give me a sort of starting point to work with. I can then rearrange them into whatever I would like.

If Jamstix were able to let the user tell it to definitely do certain things, that would alleviate some of my problems. For instance, what if I want a snare on a certain beat every two bars? I have to have two different rhythms. Wouldn't it be a cool thing to be able to say "do this every three bars" or something like that.

To elucidate: I think I want the best of both worlds, something that has the organicism that Jamstix brings to the table, but also gives the user the final say-so with decision making.

I dunno.. at this point we understand each other very well, and I'm just thinking outloud. I look forward to seeing what the next version will bring. Any sort of time estimate on that, or is just a "when its ready" thing??

[Ralph [RZ]]

It is a 'when it is ready' thing but we have a projected date of Feb 07 with a strong desire to finish it earlier if at all possible.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com

[Amberience]

Cool. Well, I'm looking forward to checking it out.

[Texasspecial]

Amberience,

good constructive criticism, always welcome in these forums.

This is how I see JS:

You really should look at JS as a fellow musician, with it's own ideas and aproach towards your music. You tell it what you want roughly and then let JS do the rest. If you don't like the result you just let it have another go. Try to have some trust in the program.

Before JS my drumtracks always sounded very "me" if you know what I mean. JS on the other hand continues to surprise me with its own decisions. It does things I would never think of. Lock the parts you like in the arranger and let JS have another go on the rest of the arrangement.
The result will be a very organic and real drumtrack with some very fresh ideas.
And if really needed you can always hand-edit the crucial parts of the track.

Just experiment a lot with the various sliders etc. and use envelopes. This program sure needs time to grow on you.

All my humble opinion of course.

Take care...

[koolkeys]

I'm with you on my parts sounding very "me". They also sounded lazy many times. The reason is that my feeble, non drummer mind, doesn't think of the little subtle changes from one bar to another. Jamstix does, but won't if you don't want it to.

This is one of the biggest selling points of JS for me. And it does it all in response to what I'm doing. I guess that's another big selling point for me.

I guess there are ALOT of big selling points for me!

Brent

[russellkeys]

I tried the drag midi files approach you are talking about for years and without hours of work the tracks sounded static and boring. I have used JS on many songs and all but just a few I have not had to use the rhthms and make an arrangement the freejam has made tracks that are so much like what a really good drummer would make and using the sensitivity settings knob has just the feel and amazingly has fills and accents in just the places a real drummer would have put it making the tracks so much more realistic than I could ever do using midi loops. But everyone works different so there is a place for all things. As texasspecial said trust the program and let it do what it does so well and then tweak what it gives you after exporting to a midi track. I gave up on using midi drum tracks and audio loops in Acid, and only used live drummers until I found Jamstyx. The only time I use a live drummer now is if a band comes to record who has a drummer who plays with them fulltime or when a client specifies they want a live drummer. To all you real drummers you are still important, not trying to say anything will ever completely replace you, but other than you this program comes as close as I have ever seen. Good luck with whatever you do.

[Amberience]

I will try to give it a little longer. I was jamming around with Jamstix demo earlier again. For 4/4 stuff its very good. I don't get what you mean when you say "lock the parts you like in the arranger and let JS have another go on the rest of the arrangement"

got any power user tips for me to try out???

[Ralph [RZ]]

There is a lock function in the arranger that allows you to lock a bar to whatever it was playing last. Once it is locked, it will no longer be affected by changes to the underlying rhythm. This makes it a bit of a power feature in that it can be confusing when you mix locked and unlocked bars and I try my best not to officially support this workflow.

However, in the hand of an experienced user it can be very useful. I generally recommend 'to lock the least amount possible'.

What russellkeys is describing is a method of free jamming where you listen to JS and you say "Wow, I loved bar 5", Now you stop JS, lock bar 5 so it will never change again and then change free jam settings etc. to get JS to do other things and then you may say "Hey, I liked bar 8" so you lock that one etc. etc.

You can even paste/copy locked bars if needed.
_________________
Ralph Zeuner
Rayzoon Technologies LLC
http://www.rayzoon.com

[RichLum]

In regards to locking bars, what I find best from a workflow perspective when putting drum tracks togehter in manual mode is to map out the rhythms you want and then set the complexity and funkiness sliders to the minimum.

Then play the song through

It will still add accents and variations based on the snare and tom accent settings for each individual rhythm.

Then lock all bars, then go through and unlock the bars I would like to have some more "flair" or put in fills etc.

Then increase the funkiness and complexity sliders and let JS play back again and the locked bars won't change but the unlocked bars will play differently.

Also if I want a crash or snare hit on a certain beat I can go into the applicable rhythm and put it in and just play that bar back and it will add it whilst still leaving all the locked bars unchanged.

You don't have to play the whole song for these tweaks, just play from a bar or so before the unlocked bar and it will play something different and once you have it like you want lock it

Rich
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https://www.facebook.com/richard.lum.music

[Texasspecial]

Amberience,

just give it some time. This piece of software is so simple but also has so huge potential. Listen to work from other users and you'll be amazed what is possible. Don't give up.

Can't wait for JS2