| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Musikman4Christ
Jamologist
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 116
|
 Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Wow! Can't believe I never read this post. Always saw it, but never clicked it. Amazing ideas. I cann't wait to try them out. Thank you Sir.
Does anyone have an Ableton Live Setup or project file setup for this?
If not, I will try to see how I can do it.
Cheers.
| ProfRhino wrote: | Basic Drumsound Tutorial Pt.2
[Preparations]
Please make sure you're familiar with pt.1, we'll need those concepts again as we're going for even more control over individual kit pieces.
Set up a project exactly as described in pt.1, with G1 to G4 and the respective plugins and routing.
One exception though : Don't set up the sends feeding G2 and G3 yet.
[Setting up individual outs]
-- in the mixer window choose 8 outputs and ambience - "send to last".
-- You might have to reload JS to activate the new output configuration
-- in the center at the top of the kit window you'll see the output routing menu - choose the one at the bottom - 8 outs
-- depending on your host you might have to activate the extra outs, in C4 it's done in the VSTi rack.
-- Voila - if you look in your host's mixer, you should see each "class" of kit pieces (kick, snare, toms, hats, ride, crashes, percussion and ambience) having its own mixer channel, 8 in total.
-- From now on the sky's the limit as far as complexity goes, this is how I personally approach a typical "natural" rock- or pop kit, of course there are several other equally cool approaches.
[Routing and getting the basic sound]
-- the outs for kick, snare and toms go to G1 "Drums", the others including ambience go to G4 "Drums Complete".
-- next you can set up sends to feed G2 "New York" and G3 "Drum Room", but this time we'll use the sends from the individual channels so we can adjust what kit pieces get a "NY" boost (typically kick, snare, toms) and how much "Room" you'll apply to each channel (snare and toms more, kick and cymbals a bit less)
-- check if everything's going where it's supposed to, turn down the faders of G2 and G3 for now and save.
[Getting creative]
-- now you can EQ, compress and further treat individual kit pieces without affecting others.
-- next are some tricks and things I tend to listen for personally, ymmv massively.
[Kick]
-- a bit of compression to make it more "solid", followed by EQ.
-- You'll want to have dry punch relatively low down, however definitely cut the sub-bass below 40 to 80 Hz radically using a HPF (high pass filter) and a spectrum analyzer since your monitors probably can't reproduce those super low frequencies anyway, just like 95% of all other sound systems.
-- A bit of boost in the 2 to 5 kHz range to bring out the "beater kick" or "click" better might be in order
-- Finally we carve a hole in the low mids (200 to 400 Hz) so that the bass (guitar etc) gets some room to breathe
-- Bass and kick have to be approached as a team, two sides of the same coin
[Snare]
-- arguably the most important kit piece, worth some closer attention
-- again a generous amount of compression, followed by EQ and (optional) a dedicated FX reverb (anything is possible, room, hall, plate, inverse, gated) in the last insert
-- the snare verb should be seen more as an integral part of the sound than as an effect, affecting the frequencies as much or even more than the EQ
-- some folks add subtle distortion, one plug I like for that job is the free RubyTube (http://www.silverspike.com/?Products:RubyTube) - well worth a try !
With more extreme settings it can even replace comp and EQ in some cases - and I'm still talking about a "natural" drum sound, no lo-fi or trash in sight atm. 
[Toms]
-- compression and EQ again
-- you want the toms to be anywhere between clearly audible and thunderous, but rather consistent in volume and "energy" from high to low - clearly a job for compression
-- more often than not I'm using a HPF to reduce some low frequencies and maybe EQ to control the "ringing"
-- a little bit of drum room if desired
[Hats & Cymbals]
-- not much to do here, mostly I just try to get the levels right and maybe apply a bit of HPF if that silvery sizzle is desired
-- drum room optional, not too much in most cases
[Ambience]
-- anywhere from untreated (swing) to extremely compressed (80s pop, metal)
[Filters]
-- it pays off big time to have good flexible filters, the best I've heard yet are from UA's Cambridge EQ, but do a search at kvr, there certainly are lots of freeware alternatives
-- You are looking for fixed filters, not the synthesizer type of time variable filter !
[Gates]
-- often used with live drums, rarely really needed with good samples like JS.
-- can control excessive ringing or sustain, especially for kick and toms, though I tend to use the damping control in the JS2 kit piece editor instead, sounds more natural to me
-- ringing can also be controlled by EQ amazingly well, just like the amount of the "snare wires"
-- the other purpose of gates in drum mixing is to control the bleed in the microphones, won't explain further here since that doesn't apply for JS' cleanly recorded samples
[NY compression]
-- If you're still not 100% happy with the punch you can dial in some NY compression, remember you can adjust it individually now since you have set up individual sends
[Tools]
-- it's a wonderful time to do recordings and mixes, there are so many fantastic choices for pro quality FX - maybe we can discuss commercial stuff in dedicated threads
-- some freeware that works fine imho:
Kjaerhus Classic, Voxengo, SlimSlowSlider, DigitalFishPhones, and there are lots more, check @ kvr
[Final thoughts]
-- of course this little article can only scratch the surface, and it can only describe my preferred way of working, I'd very much like to hear about your personal methods and tricks !
-- Maybe somebody could write a bit about getting a great jazz sound or how to get cool contemporary non-"natural" drum sounds for example?
-- if it sounds good, it is good
-- please don't think you'll have to do all this to get a decent sound out of JS, for many jobs I'm very happy with the way JS sounds right out of the box and only add a bit of verb and NY as in pt.1
-- the stuff mentioned here is meant for those occasions where you have to get the sound precisely right to fit a certain arrangement, know your options, know your tools !
-- obviously served with generous amounts of YMMV and IMHO !
-- most important, HAVE FUN !
Cheers,
Rhino |
_________________
Musikman
"I know the plans that I have for you, declares the LORD. They are plans for peace and not disaster, plans to give you a future filled with hope." When you wholeheartedly seek me, I will let you find me, declares the Lord."Jeremiah 29:11 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ludmillus
Jammer
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 22
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
 Thank you Rhino for your exact describtion about the drums sound!
Just GREAT!
Regards and best wishes from Germany
Carl Matthias |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Krank
Jammer
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 39
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry for my daftness, but I'm asking myself why not skip G1?
The way I have it set up in Live, each drum track (kick, snare, cymbals, toms) has three sends (G2 NY, G3 room, G4 drum bus). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Krank
Jammer
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 39
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Also, when you have an ambience channel from Jamstix, can this replace the drum room bus? Thinking of a tight metal mix. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
addi_son
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hmmmmm, food for thought! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fulvia
Jam Meister
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 92
Location: U.K.
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Basic Drumsound Tutorial (By Rhino) |
|
|
I'm trying out NY compression but I'm not totally happy with my results....
| ProfRhino wrote: |
[Sub-Groups]
We'll be working with stereo out only for now, individual outs will be dealt with later.
First create four subgroups in your host's mixer (I'm using Cubase4, the exact procedure might be slightly different in other hosts).
Route the output of JS2 to the first group called "Drums" (G1).
G1 should be routed to G4, called "Drums Complete".
Route G4 to your stereo out.
The 2nd group G2 is called NY (for New York parallel compression, more later), routed to G4 |
Is it normal when you raise the fader of G2 for there to be,
1. some slight flanging effect (especially noticed in the snare) when the levels are about equal, and
2. when the level of G2 goes higher, an overall reduction in the stereo width?
I'm getting the "punch" for sure, but I don't like these side-effects.
I'm using cubase, and have tried both post and pre-fader settings routed from G1.
Any advice welcome  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
alexis
PhD in Jamology
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 454
|
| Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Basic Drumsound Tutorial (By Rhino) |
|
|
| fulvia wrote: | I'm trying out NY compression but I'm not totally happy with my results....
| ProfRhino wrote: |
[Sub-Groups]
We'll be working with stereo out only for now, individual outs will be dealt with later.
First create four subgroups in your host's mixer (I'm using Cubase4, the exact procedure might be slightly different in other hosts).
Route the output of JS2 to the first group called "Drums" (G1).
G1 should be routed to G4, called "Drums Complete".
Route G4 to your stereo out.
The 2nd group G2 is called NY (for New York parallel compression, more later), routed to G4 |
Is it normal when you raise the fader of G2 for there to be,
1. some slight flanging effect (especially noticed in the snare) when the levels are about equal, and
2. when the level of G2 goes higher, an overall reduction in the stereo width?
I'm getting the "punch" for sure, but I don't like these side-effects.
I'm using cubase, and have tried both post and pre-fader settings routed from G1.
Any advice welcome |
Hi fulvia - it's possible there is a "Plug-in Delay" from the compressor plug-in inserted into G2 that is not being compensated for properly in Cubase. This could result in the outputs of G1 and G2 being slightly shifted from one another (in time), and that's one of the possible things which can cause the sonic artifacts you describe.
Here are few ways to check to see if that's happening in your system, and also how to fix it if that's the case. I'm going to assume you've inserted a 3rd party plug-in G2 ... if you're using Cubase's own compressor (which I assume, though can't confirm, is always compensated for by Cubase!) I guess the answer would lie elsewhere.
There are a few places in Cubase where this can go wrong/be corrected:
1) In Devices/Device Setup/VST Audio System/Advanced (in different versions of Cubase the names may be slightly different, but I think will be pretty similar-sounding), there is a box called "Adjust for Record Latency". If this is checked, Cubase will apply its "Adjust for plug-in delay" compensation feature. If it's not checked, it might cause the artifacts you describe.
2) In the project window, there is the "Constrain Delay Compensation" button. If this is LIT, then Cubase will ignore its own plug-in compensation, and tracks will be a little shifted from each other, which can cause the same artifacts.
3) In the inspector area of each track there is a "Track Delay in Msec" field. If this is set wrong, it will shift the track forward or backwards in relation to the other tracks, which can cause the artifacts. Unless there's a definite reason to do otherwise, setting this to zero initially is usually a pretty safe bet.
4) Finally, in the same Devices/.../Advanced window mentioned above, there is a "Record Shift" field. This is to compensate for Cubase not being able to read quite all the delays in the audio interface. You can do a search on the steinberg.net Cubase 6 forum for the Steinberg "Loop Back Test" to see how to populate this field. I don't think this is a likely reason for the artifacts you describe, but if all else fails, it's worth looking at.
You could go through and check all of these out, but maybe an easier way to see whether the problem is G2 compressor delay-related would be to:
Step 1:Set up 1 more group, call it "G1A Delay-Only Comp", and then set its input from G1, and it's output to G4. The purpose of this group is to delay the "uncompressed" G1 track by the same amount that the G2 compressor plug-in is delaying the signal - by sending it through the same compressor, but set so no compression or other signal processing is taking place (unlike G2 where, of course, a the same compressor is set so a LOT of compression is taking place!).
Step 2:SNow, in your new "G1A Delay-Only Comp" group, insert the same compressor as you have in G2. Now, and here is the important part, set it so that it does not process the signal, but just passes it through (set ratio to 1:1 for example, no make up gain; setting it to "Bypass" in Cubase may do the same thing, I'm not sure about that though). The key thing is that the "dry" signal from G1 and the "NY" signal from G2 will be in synch with each other when they hit G4, having both passed through the same "model" compressor, and those both been delayed by the same amount. Hopefully at that point all the phasy artifacts should go away!
Whatever the cause of your phasy artifacts, I hope they go away!
Regards -
_________________
Alexis
JS 3.6.1x64; Cubase 7.5.40 64 bit; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W7 SP1 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio Drive; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo, BCF2K; TC Helicon VoiceOne; RevoicePro3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shadowfax_
Grand Master Jam
Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 242
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just followed profrhino's drum instructions and am very pleased with the resulting drum sound..I'm working on a track at the mo and will post it up soon..the drums sound great and not an ezdrummer in sight!!! 
Kevin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
perc_perc
Jammer
Joined: 18 Jan 2018
Posts: 41
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you very much. I want to create processed drums, routed to various external fx. I'm interested in learning how to do this fully use in Bitwig. I did manage to figure out where the 8 stereo Jamstix channels are hiding. But Bitwig also gives the option to route Jamstix Pre & Post FX - yet when I do this I hear nothing. I don't see anything in the Jamstix 4 manual concerning this. Are there routings, as in BFD, of the ambience channels? So one could indeed grab the pre and post and route them separately?
For instance, when I tell Bitwig to create the routings from the 8 stereo tracks of Jamstix (by clicking the double horizontal right arrows in the device pane, then clicking "Add Missing Chains") it creates them in the mixer, as a part of a group track, and calls them JSX Output 1 (1/2), etc. You click on the double horizontal arrows on that group track's strip, and it exposes them.
But there are also other more specific Jamstix tracks exposed to me in the mixer (if I click on the "audio from" position in the mixer), as Jamstix 4, Jamstix 4 Chains, JSX Out 1 (1/2) (Pre), JSX Out 1 (1/2) (Post), etc. Its the latter that I can't figure out. Do you know how I can use these? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
non_drummer
Jam Meister
Joined: 30 Nov 2012
Posts: 82
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| This seems like a pretty useful topic that ProfRhino started.... but I noticed that he hasn't been on the forum in over 10 years. Anyone know what happened to him? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
